15:01:07 <williamq> #startmeeting
15:01:07 <remobot> Meeting started Sun Sep 30 15:01:07 2012 UTC.  The chair is williamq. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:01:07 <remobot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:01:17 <williamq> welcome everyone
15:01:29 <williamq> I hope everyone's having a great weekend
15:01:45 <williamq> we've got a lot to cover today so let's dive right in
15:01:52 <regnard> all rught~
15:02:05 <williamq> #topic Contributor Engagement re-org update
15:02:06 <regnard> right. (typing rusty)
15:02:37 <williamq> so as you all must have heard by now, Jane Finette, who led the User Engagement team is leaving Mozilla
15:03:03 <Kensie> ah I didn't realize that was her position!
15:03:07 <williamq> which means that her team will be joining forces with the Contributor Engagement team
15:03:31 <williamq> and this new team will be renamed most probably the Community Engagement team
15:03:42 <williamq> i say probably because nothing is set in stone yet
15:03:47 <williamq> we're still figuring things out
15:04:08 <williamq> for now, please keep all this to yourselves until the official word is out later this week
15:04:55 <williamq> but basically, what this means is that the Community Engagement team (formerly known as the Contributor Engagement team)will be a bigger team
15:05:04 <williamq> with two specific areas of focus
15:05:12 <williamq> a) community building and b) community marketing
15:05:37 <williamq> in the next weeks, we'll be defining specific roles within the team
15:06:06 <williamq> but it's pretty obvious that Mozilla Reps program will continue to be the main driver of our community building efforts
15:07:04 <williamq> Pierros and I will continue to be the ReMo drivers within the team and hopefully, if all goes well, we'll be able to get a developer on board so we can work on the portal and continue building new tools and functionalities for Reps
15:07:17 <williamq> and last but not least
15:07:21 * pierros cheers!
15:07:28 <williamq> Mary Colvig will be leading this new community engagement team
15:07:40 <williamq> so that's about it for the re-org update
15:07:46 <williamq> expect more news in the coming weeks
15:07:53 <williamq> any questions before we move to the next topic?
15:08:37 <kinger> Users and Contrinutors are very different, will be interesting to see how that mixes
15:08:41 <regnard> will there be any major process/SOP changes?
15:09:02 <pierros> regnard: none that I can think of
15:09:27 <williamq> kinger: indeed, but i do think both sub-teas will complement eachother very well
15:09:35 <kinger> right
15:09:45 <williamq> the contributor engagement team has been strong in terms of community building, but fairly week in terms of community marketing
15:09:52 <kinger> bounce ideas off each other, and so on
15:10:13 <williamq> we have not been good at supporting contributors interested in participating in local marketing campaigns
15:10:57 <kinger> Gen has started working on that, right?
15:11:00 <Kensie> are we going to launch the marketing collective?
15:11:05 <Kensie> that plan sounds perfect to me
15:11:07 <williamq> Kinger: yes
15:11:12 <regnard> what are the odds that Reps will extend its reach to users? (ie activities mainly for basic users)?
15:11:13 <williamq> Kensie: indeed
15:11:37 <williamq> the idea is (and nothing is official yet though) that the marketing collective serves as a bridge between the two sub teams
15:12:45 <williamq> community building will focus on strnegthening and empowering volunteers with tools, resources, materials etc… and the community markteting sub team will be tasked to work with all the different teams on Mozilla' sengagement team to come up with community marketing campaigns that make sense
15:12:56 <williamq> in a transparent, collaborative way
15:13:04 <Kensie> \o/
15:13:08 <regnard> I ask that because Reps have been good at getting existing communities and running with it, but not building from scratch
15:13:17 <williamq> regnard: right
15:14:02 <Kensie> well I think that's not true in Africa
15:14:03 <williamq> I think that having the marketing colleavitve bridge the two teams will help Reps get extend to basic users
15:14:12 <Kensie> and (fingers crossed) I think we're finally gaining momentum in Canada
15:14:20 <Kensie> but I agree it's been much harder than it could have been
15:14:57 <williamq> yeah, i think we've got some interestign couple of months ahead
15:15:09 <regnard> ok, i'm looking forward to that
15:15:11 <regnard> :D
15:15:14 <williamq> we're going to see lots of new initiatives and experiments on the marketing front, locally
15:15:30 <williamq> and Reps are going to be central
15:16:00 <williamq> ok, stay tuned for more updates on the re-org soon
15:16:06 <williamq> moving on to the next topic
15:16:22 <williamq> #topic Budget Task Forces and budget process update
15:16:53 <williamq> so, as everyone knows now, the Budget Task Force has held a few meetings and has come up with some recommendations
15:17:57 <williamq> the aim is to be more streamlines and thorough in the way we're managing the ReMo budget
15:18:43 <williamq> one thing the BTF will be doing now is review and approve/reject "small" budgets
15:19:22 <williamq> and the larger budgets will be assigned to council members but will need majority approval or unanimous approval depending on the amount
15:19:24 <williamq> just like before
15:19:53 <williamq> so far, no one has expressed any concerns about this new process but if you do, please share them now
15:20:39 <williamq> going once...
15:20:44 <williamq> going twice...
15:20:49 <regnard> wil this be a piloy?
15:20:52 <regnard> pilot?
15:21:04 <regnard> ie, evaluated after x number of months?
15:21:30 <williamq> sure, we can revisit the process in say, 3 months and decide during the council work week whether to change or to continue with it
15:21:32 <Kensie> well the only difference is really that not everyone has to deal with budget requests. The task force is still overseen by council members.
15:21:37 <pierros> williamq: +1
15:21:44 <Kensie> in terms of that part of the process anyway
15:21:53 <williamq> yes indeed
15:22:01 <Rami> +1 for review after 3 months
15:22:30 <williamq> so the other change we discussed with the BTF is the need to be much more rigorous in the way we review and approve budget requests
15:22:36 <regnard> great, 3 months sounds fine. What is the average number of "small" budget requests per month anyway?
15:22:36 <Izel> williamq +1
15:22:53 <williamq> regnard: i would need to look that up
15:23:03 <williamq> but I woudl say about 50 a month
15:23:08 <regnard> ok, np.
15:23:15 <williamq> now, in terms of being more rigorous
15:23:40 <williamq> we are going to ask mentors to thoroughly review the budget requests made by their mentees
15:23:46 <williamq> as described in the budget sop
15:24:27 <williamq> and mentors will need to systematically require that their mentee define success scenarios and metrics
15:24:56 <williamq> we've always agreed that having metrics as important but we have never really followed-through
15:25:41 <williamq> so we have ended up with a lot of events we've sponsored with no real follow-up after and no real idea if the event was successful in recruiting new contibutors, in getting media coverage etc..
15:26:00 <williamq> obviously, this is quite complex
15:26:11 <williamq> and we'll never have a perfect aproach and perfect metrics etc...
15:26:47 <williamq> but I think for starters, we need to ensure that Reps who request a budget
15:26:50 <williamq> a) idnetify *clear* success metrics
15:26:51 <regnard> this is a good reason the mentor should be in the same region/locale as the mentee, as much as possible
15:27:08 <williamq> b) report back to their mentor afterwards
15:27:33 <williamq> c) be subject to tougher evaluation if they have repeatedly misse dtheir success goals
15:27:47 <williamq> regnard: agreed
15:28:12 <williamq> now for this last point (ie. tougher evaluation if the Rep has repeatedly missed or failed)
15:28:24 <williamq> it's obvisously delicate
15:28:33 <Kensie> williamq: i think your suggestion that we have predefined metrics for reps to choose from, rather than having to make them up, will go a very long way!
15:28:42 <Kensie> I know it'll make it easier for me filling out a request
15:28:49 <williamq> Kensie: cool :)
15:29:36 <williamq> does everyone else agree that we should have predefined metrics a Rep should choose fro?
15:29:37 <williamq> *from
15:29:54 <regnard> i agree
15:30:02 <Izel> I agrre too
15:30:06 <Izel> agree*
15:30:10 <xelawafs> +1
15:30:20 <regnard> that's the underlying framework of the scheme i suggested a couple of weeks ago
15:30:38 <kinger> +1, but with an 'Other' option they can fill in themselves
15:30:40 <Kensie> ah regnard's suggestion then :D
15:30:50 <Kensie> kinger: yes, I was thinking that, too
15:30:59 <Rami> are we going to restricted the metrics to these predefined ?
15:31:41 <williamq> well, as Kinger suggested, we should have a, "Other" option
15:31:50 <Rami> ok
15:31:51 <pierros> Rami: we will have freeform too
15:31:51 <regnard> I think the metrics we should focus on are the ones that matter to the program
15:31:54 <williamq> https://remo.etherpad.mozilla.org/success-criteria
15:32:02 <Rami> ok then
15:32:03 <williamq> regnard: aboslutely
15:32:54 <williamq> and the ones that matter are those that reflect community growth, involvement/activity in the project and awareness of the mission and products
15:33:30 <pierros> totally measurable all of them
15:33:38 <pierros> especially as we develop more tools
15:33:43 <williamq> ok cool, so if everyone can add their suggestions on the etherpad i just shared, that would be great
15:35:03 <williamq> for now, I suggest that we ask Reps to pick minimum 3 success metrics from this list when making a budget request
15:35:08 <Kensie> ooh some of these suggestions look like good fodder for the events task force
15:35:20 <Kensie> like setting up something on your site so it can have facebook likes
15:35:22 <williamq> and then later, we will introduce "weights" as per Regnard's suggestion
15:35:35 <williamq> Kensie: indeed :)
15:35:42 <Izel> I have a question.. what happen if you have an event and you know you wont have new community members or volunteers?
15:36:16 <williamq> #action williamq and regnard to work on proposal for weighting system (success metrics and budget)
15:36:26 <kinger> Izel : that is only 1 criteria, there will be others
15:36:37 <Kensie> Izel: right, like if the event is to work on a campaign, or a site or something?
15:36:49 <Izel> It sounds a bit friki but ... we will have a couple of those events..
15:37:13 <williamq> well i think there is *always* an opportunity to get someone new involved
15:37:23 <pierros> williamq: +!
15:37:25 <pierros> +1
15:37:50 <williamq> it doesn't have to be a success metric for *all* Reps events but i think it should always be an objective
15:37:51 <Kensie> williamq: but the community building events, like socials shouldn't have their success tied to that, for example
15:38:04 <williamq> Kensie: right
15:38:33 <Kensie> so we should think of good metrics for that kind of thing (other than how many bottles are consumed!)
15:38:52 <Izel> We will have  events with government people an IT people. (majors, IT managers, etc)  They a re working on a migration to Open source
15:39:15 <williamq> ok
15:39:25 <Izel> they won't be part of a cummunity, they just need to knos about Firefox advantages
15:39:36 <williamq> clearly, different events will have different objectives
15:39:43 <regnard> i think social activities should just have a fixed cap as per country definitions of BTF
15:39:51 <Kensie> we can brainstorm on the pad or on the council list as well
15:40:01 <pierros> regnard: this is true
15:40:32 <Izel> I thing we can add to the etherpad a new "measure" to keept in mint this not  measured situations... maybe Importance? Impact?
15:40:59 <williamq> Izel: yes, definitely although how do you meaure "importance" ?
15:41:17 <williamq> clearly, a meeting with government IT people is important
15:41:28 <Izel> ok i will add this options
15:41:56 <williamq> but should that in itself be enough to approve a budget request?
15:42:52 <pierros> it should :S
15:43:07 <Kensie> but the metric could be "another meeting" or "proceed with switching to Firefox"
15:43:19 <Kensie> but in those types of events it'd probably be a single goal
15:43:40 <Kensie> maybe we could organize the pad on the types of metrics that are appropriate for the types of events?
15:43:48 <Izel> I think is not enough to have all  to approve a budget.
15:43:56 <Izel> kensie +1
15:43:58 <Kensie> and then we can make sure we have metrics that cover each
15:44:06 <williamq> ok
15:44:10 <williamq> we need to move on
15:44:20 <williamq> Kensie: can you start a thread about metrics defintion?
15:44:27 <Kensie> sure!
15:44:32 <Kensie> btw, are we using the flags yet?
15:44:39 <williamq> #action Kensie to start a thread on metrics defintion for budget requests
15:45:02 <williamq> I haven't started but I plan to start Oct 1st
15:45:16 <Kensie> ok!
15:46:03 <williamq> ok moving on
15:46:23 <williamq> #topic MozFest
15:46:53 <williamq> FuzzyFox has been a bit busy with uni but he promised he'll be back in the groove of things next week
15:47:21 <williamq> so please expect a meeting request from him to discuss specific roles and objectives of Reps at the festival
15:47:35 <williamq> in the meantime, we're finalizing logistics
15:47:50 <williamq> it looks like Reps will be staying at the Park Plaza hotel and NOT the Ibis Hotel
15:47:59 <williamq> we'll get confirmation tomorrow evening CET
15:48:23 <williamq> so those who need a visa (and hence a hotel confirmation) need to wait a bit more
15:48:35 <williamq> all should be clarified by tomorrow evening
15:49:00 <williamq> if you have any questions please do write to FuzzyFox and make sure to CC pierros and I (just in case :)
15:49:11 <kinger> ok
15:49:12 <williamq> ok, moving on..
15:49:20 <williamq> #topic last meeting of shadow council
15:49:37 <williamq> well, technically, this is the last meeting of the shadow council
15:49:48 <Izel> :(
15:49:51 <williamq> if I'm not mistaken
15:50:08 <williamq> pierros?
15:50:29 <kinger> yes we are not needed. New council has hit the ground running … no adult supervision necessary :)
15:50:36 <williamq> haha
15:50:45 <pierros> yep this would be the last meeting
15:50:56 <Kensie> yes, and 3 repeat members really does ensure a smooth transition
15:51:03 <williamq> indeed
15:51:04 <kinger> indeed
15:51:19 <kinger> 5 repeat members
15:51:24 <Nukeador> Remove the training wheels!
15:51:29 <Kensie> hehe, of course :)
15:51:43 <williamq> now, in terms of budget reviews, do we all agree that from tomorrow onwards, *only* former council members on the BTF can review budgets?
15:52:02 <pierros> hm.. I still have my reservations on this
15:52:12 <pierros> I would say no.. but then we need more people to review
15:52:32 <williamq> pierros: so you would prefer having *only* council members involved in budget reviews?
15:52:34 <pierros> being in the council is a responsibility on its own
15:52:39 <pierros> williamq: yep
15:52:57 <williamq> currently, Deimidis and Viking are on the BTF
15:53:09 <Kensie> I think if the number of requests are low enough we could handle it like we have done the IT and planning bugs, and do a group triage
15:53:19 <Kensie> where the group is bound by guidelines approved by council
15:53:23 <pierros> don't get me wrong but once council members are elected they are "given" this power
15:53:44 <Kensie> and the council members on the group can also tackle some as they come in
15:53:51 <pierros> Kensie: for other task forces I am not against review by non-council
15:54:08 <williamq> pierros: in other words, you would prefer that Deimidis and Viking leave the BTF?
15:54:12 <Nukeador> What's BTF?
15:54:14 <Nukeador> :P
15:54:18 <Kensie> budget task force
15:54:22 <Nukeador> ok
15:54:27 <williamq> Nukeador: arrgghhhhh
15:54:33 <williamq> ;)
15:54:36 <pierros> not leave.. but need a council member to approve
15:54:48 <williamq> pierros: ok
15:54:56 <williamq> so Deimidis and Viking will be "advisors" on the BTF
15:55:20 <Nukeador> It seems we love (too much) acronyms at mozilla :P
15:55:20 <williamq> but only Kensie, Vineel and myself can approve those budgets that the BTF can approve
15:55:25 <Kensie> pierros: should we make a bugzilla group just for sitting council members? then the remo-approval flag can only be set to + by council
15:55:31 <pierros> thats my take on it.. but please don't be bind by my take :)
15:55:48 <pierros> that should be the case Kensie
15:55:55 <williamq> Kensie: makes sense
15:55:56 <Kensie> ok i will file bug!
15:56:00 <williamq> cool
15:56:10 <williamq> ok all, we have 5 min ledt
15:56:12 <williamq> left
15:56:17 <Kensie> #action Kensie to file bug for council only bugzilla group
15:56:24 <williamq> before we move to the last topic
15:56:32 <williamq> i just wanted to quickly go back to the budget discussion
15:56:43 <williamq> we forgot to go over the PPP discussion
15:57:00 <williamq> PPP = purchasing power parity
15:57:22 <williamq> this was suggested by the BTF to address the huge discrepancies in budgets we're approving for similar events around the world
15:58:08 <williamq> for example, we are approving $100 USD for a mozcafé in the Philippines and $100 USD for a similar mozcafé in Germany
15:58:15 <kinger> for me, cost of good and services is the most important factor, because that is what Reps are buying with their budget
15:58:29 <Nukeador> True
15:58:33 <Nukeador> That was my concern
15:58:33 <vineel> +1
15:58:38 <Izel> +1
15:58:48 <pierros> +!
15:59:09 <Nukeador> It's how much things costs, whatever this is measured :P
15:59:32 <Rami> :D
16:00:14 <williamq> so how do you know if the costs are outrageously expensive ?
16:00:22 <williamq> we need some sort of reference
16:00:42 <Kensie> Right, in one country $100USD can buy you significantly more coffee than in another country
16:00:45 <williamq> something that might appear as very affordable might actually be completely outrageous in the country of the Rep
16:01:09 <Nukeador> williamq, we all agree on that
16:01:12 <Nukeador> I think
16:01:24 <williamq> and that's the thing, we've been approving some budgets for relatively small events that cost 2 months salary in some cases
16:01:55 <Nukeador> Don't think on how much is in salaries
16:02:19 <vineel> we need to look for ways of more rigorous budget approval that involves mentor, BTF to evaluate things, and the next factor can be accountability of the rep
16:02:20 <Nukeador> Think about how much it really cost compared with other countries
16:03:19 <Nukeador> I have concerns on countries were people have less money and goods cost the same or more than in other richer countries
16:03:32 <Izel> and if reps fill a bug and attach a quotation?
16:03:49 <Izel> and at the end, they attach receipts?
16:04:04 <williamq> Nukeador: understood
16:04:16 <Nukeador> If a coffee is 5$ in Colombia, is 5$, it doesn't matter 5$ is 1 month salary there :P
16:04:17 <williamq> Isel: yes, they always have to attach quotation and receipts
16:04:43 <Rami> +1 Nukeador
16:04:44 <Izel> we can make a list of events for country and make a cost average
16:04:53 <pierros> Nukeador: that might be the case for some cases. But remember all, we are not blocking anything beyond the limits we have.. we just bring more eyes to review
16:04:54 <Kensie> well, if it's one month salary, what do people usually drink?
16:04:55 <Izel> by country*
16:05:00 <Kensie> maybe they should be having tea
16:05:02 <kinger> Nukeador : but what if the norm in Columbia is going without coffee?
16:05:03 <williamq> Kensie: exactly
16:05:36 <Kensie> and it's not that we'd be saying no to these things, we just need the rep to justify it
16:05:37 <Nukeador> pierros, I know, it's just maybe we will have to work more on reviews for things that are not that important or expensive at the end
16:05:46 <pierros> tiers and limits are applied only to make sure that we have sufficient people reviewing.. not to block anything
16:05:50 <kinger> A normal event in a country with higher GDP can be extravagant by social norms elsewhere
16:05:59 <Nukeador> true
16:06:14 <pierros> I understand that we are not going to have a perfect tiered system :) So we should just pick one that makes sense
16:06:25 <williamq> pierros: +1
16:06:30 <williamq> we just need a reference point
16:06:33 <williamq> it will never be perfect
16:06:37 <williamq> but we need ot have a reference
16:06:42 <regnard> pierros: the BTF proposal isa good 1st version
16:07:00 <pierros> regnard: true
16:07:04 <Kensie> ./nick Barbosa the code be more like guidelines!
16:07:05 <williamq> if Camara requests $200 USD for a mozcafé for 10 people
16:07:12 <williamq> it's in Senegal
16:07:28 <williamq> $200 USD can buy coffee for 100 people
16:07:52 <williamq> yet at first sight, for a reviewer living in a rich country, that can come across as peanuts
16:08:24 <Nukeador> True, for example I prefer not to expend money on a mozcoffe in Spain, it's ok if each one pays his drink
16:08:30 <regnard> in that scenario, the BTF guide will tell reviewer that is too much, right?
16:08:42 <Rami> this is why important that mentor should review the budget 1st and because of that area he will have more sense about the money and cost
16:08:43 <williamq> regnard: exactly
16:09:09 <pierros> Rami: +1
16:09:11 <vineel> +1
16:09:28 <williamq> ok so do we all agree to use PPP as a reference (ie. just to give a rough idea)
16:09:46 <pierros> +1 from me :)
16:09:51 <kinger> yes
16:09:59 <regnard> i agree
16:10:02 <vineel> 0
16:10:11 <Izel> +1
16:10:12 <Kensie> i trust your judgement, this isn't my area of expertise
16:10:40 <williamq> we can also use the big mac index as an additional reference http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/07/daily-chart-17
16:11:14 <williamq> again, this is just to assist us when reviewing budgets
16:11:23 <williamq> ok
16:11:32 <williamq> sorry everyone, we went a bit overboard
16:11:41 <williamq> #topic ReMo Council Work Week
16:11:48 <williamq> I'll be sending an email about this and a doodle survey
16:11:54 <vineel> http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/09/daily-chart-13 :P
16:12:09 <williamq> but basically, the plan is for the council to meet first week of December in Athens, Greece
16:12:43 <williamq> more info about this this week
16:13:07 <pierros> yeai ! Athens :)
16:13:13 <Kensie> \o/
16:13:25 <Izel> \o/
16:13:50 <pierros> We would be more than glad to have you!
16:13:52 <Rami> :)
16:13:55 <williamq> ok all, that wraps it up
16:14:05 <williamq> thanks all for joining!
16:14:08 <vineel> regional meetings! we need to decide on the date
16:14:10 <Izel> Please!!!! a date different to 13th - 14th
16:14:17 <Rami> thnx all
16:14:20 <williamq> i'll be sharing the meeting notes and following up with action items
16:14:31 <williamq> vineel: ah yes
16:14:54 <williamq> 15th
16:14:56 <Rami> pierros do you have time to talk about the event
16:15:00 <williamq> how about October 15th (Monday)
16:15:10 <Kensie> +1
16:15:16 <vineel> +1
16:15:17 <pierros> Rami: I wil be following up with email
16:15:23 <Rami> ok awesome :d
16:15:23 <pierros> williamq: +1
16:15:23 <Rami> :D
16:15:39 <Rami> 15/oct our next meeting?
16:15:52 <williamq> regional meeting
16:16:33 <Rami> ah ok
16:17:13 <vineel> so its 15th?
16:17:31 <williamq> no one is objecting to it i think
16:17:36 <williamq> so let's do it the 15th
16:17:39 <vineel> cool
16:17:44 <vineel> thanks everyone
16:17:59 <Rami> ok talk to you all soon
16:18:05 <kinger> williamq : don't forget endmeeting
16:18:07 <williamq> thanks everyone!!!
16:18:08 <kinger> bye all
16:18:09 <williamq> #endmeeting