15:02:04 <pierros> #startmeeting council-2013-11-03
15:02:04 <remobot> Meeting started Sun Nov  3 15:02:04 2013 UTC.  The chair is pierros. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:02:04 <remobot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:02:10 <pierros> #chair bobreyes
15:02:10 <remobot> Current chairs: bobreyes pierros
15:02:43 <pierros> ping melek deimidis
15:02:51 <melek> yep here :)
15:02:52 <deimidis> pong
15:02:59 <pierros> ok :) we are 5
15:03:04 <williamq> good morning/afternoon/evening everyone
15:03:21 <melek> we will wait for the others?
15:03:23 <williamq> sorry for the delay, i totally missed that time changed today
15:03:26 <deimidis> good morning/afternoon/evening
15:03:34 <pierros> no one seems to be on vidyo
15:03:34 <bobreyes> hello everyone!
15:03:38 <pierros> should we have the meeting here?
15:03:40 <bobreyes> no problem williamq
15:03:45 <williamq> yes, today will be irc
15:04:00 <pierros> ok cool
15:04:06 <pierros> bobreyes, the chair is yours :)
15:04:09 <pierros> #topic Intro
15:04:17 * williamq reminds everyone to put their names as confirmed participatns at the top of the agenda on the etherpad
15:04:39 <bobreyes> Thanks pierros!
15:05:06 <bobreyes> Hello everyone! Thanks for attending today's meeting. First on our agenda: @mozilla.org email
15:05:21 <bobreyes> @williamq @pierros updates please
15:05:27 <williamq> happy to go first
15:05:44 <pierros> #topic @mozilla.org email
15:05:52 <pierros> #link https://remo.etherpad.mozilla.org/council-meeting-20131103
15:05:57 <williamq> so as you may have noticed, there is a very long thread on the governance mailing list started by Benjamin Kerensa
15:06:28 <williamq> he shared our draft policy for email for Reps
15:06:45 <williamq> and the initial response is "Why not ALL mozillians?"
15:07:08 <williamq> several Reps have chimed in on the thread to explain that the aim is to have a gradual roll-out of @mozilla.org to all mozillians
15:07:31 <williamq> and that the idea is to first start with core Mozillians, particulary those who have signed an NDA
15:07:42 <williamq> hence, why Reps are the first people we recommend should have @mozilla.org
15:08:07 <williamq> the discussion is continuing, and i am confident we will reach some consensus and begin to distribute those emails by the end of the year
15:08:15 <williamq> pierros, care to add anything?
15:09:01 <williamq> eom
15:09:05 <pierros> yeah I think it is important that we will have this for all NDA
15:09:28 <pierros> that will make sure not to be viewed (us Reps) once again as the spoiled kids of mozilla :)
15:09:39 <melek> :)
15:09:57 <pierros> Our commitment and connection to the project is something that other people may have too. If they do they should get the same support tech/it wise
15:09:57 <pierros> eom
15:10:13 <bobreyes> thanks williamq and pierros!
15:10:30 <bobreyes> anyone would like to add something to this topic?
15:10:49 <melek> me nop !!
15:10:53 <deimidis> no
15:11:16 <bobreyes> ok thanks! let's proceed to the next one: per diem for reps during foreign travel
15:11:34 <pierros> #topic Per Diem for travel
15:12:02 <bobreyes> This was suggested by regnard before the transition of the new council members
15:12:02 <deimidis> I need to understand the meaning of Per diem
15:12:09 <williamq> !
15:12:13 <bobreyes> yes williamq
15:12:37 <williamq> the idea of per diem came from a conversation in Santa clara with about 25 Reps
15:13:07 <williamq> the idea being that instead of doing punctual reimbursement of food/drink /hotel expenses for an event, we should give a fixed amount
15:13:32 <williamq> based on pre-established references established per country
15:13:47 <williamq> lots of organizations alrready do this, including Wikimedia
15:14:03 <williamq> which use the US State Department's reference table
15:14:35 <williamq> the benefit of this is to avoid having to ask whether or not X budget requested by a Rep for food and hotel is acceptable
15:14:48 <williamq> eom
15:15:04 <bobreyes> thanks williamq!
15:15:35 <bobreyes> how do we go about with the proposal?
15:15:47 <bobreyes> is it something that we need to present as a Council?
15:15:57 <williamq> !
15:15:57 <melek> !
15:16:01 <bobreyes> yes williamq
15:16:44 <deimidis> !
15:16:52 <williamq> first, we need to agree on whether or not we do a per diem for Reps, and then we need to agree on whether or not we want to follow Wikimedia's example and finally, we need to agree on how much we want to give as a per diem
15:16:52 <williamq> eom
15:17:06 <bobreyes> yes melek
15:17:15 <melek> I remember the amounts presented by the US state dep were the problem (not representative), do we have any other reference ?? EOM
15:17:27 <bobreyes> yes deimidis
15:17:37 <williamq> !
15:18:04 <deimidis> Agree with the idea, nut ike melek I think maybe US department could be not the best option
15:18:43 <deimidis> I think we could find a rationale in each country and then re evaluate if we need it eom
15:18:49 <bobreyes> yes williamq
15:19:19 <williamq> i don't think we should get stuck on how much the US State Department gives
15:19:24 <williamq> i agree it's expensive
15:19:32 <williamq> but the point is that it's a reference
15:19:47 <williamq> so for example, Wikimedia decided to give 70% of what the US state department gives
15:19:59 <williamq> if we think that's still too much, we can give 50%
15:20:06 <pierros> +1
15:20:15 <melek> ahhh got it now!
15:20:15 <bobreyes> +1 on williamq
15:20:19 <melek> +1 too
15:20:25 <williamq> Amir Aharoni has been volunteering for wikimedia for years, and he says that it has worked very well for him and other volunteers
15:20:48 <williamq> so i would suggest we vote on what percentage we think is appropriate
15:20:49 <williamq> eom
15:20:57 <bobreyes> thanks williamq
15:21:27 <bobreyes> Council shall vote on the percentage we think is appropriate for the per diem
15:21:33 <bobreyes> proposal that is
15:21:40 <deimidis> !
15:21:44 <bobreyes> yes deimidis
15:21:56 <pierros> !
15:22:01 <deimidis> could someone add the link to the US departmen file?
15:22:04 <deimidis> eom
15:22:17 <williamq> aoprals.state.gov/web920/per_diem.asp
15:22:35 <pierros> #link http://aoprals.state.gov/web920/per_diem.asp
15:22:55 <bobreyes> @melek anything to add?
15:22:59 <williamq> !
15:23:03 <bobreyes> yes williamq
15:23:04 <deimidis> !
15:23:09 <melek> nop :)
15:23:10 <pierros> !
15:23:48 <williamq> now one thing Kensie raised is that she thinks that we should float the idea first to reps-general and then get feedback/ideas from Reps before going ahead officially with this new policy
15:24:22 <williamq> i would agree, let's tell reps-general that we would like to intorduce this new per diem policy and explain our reasoning, and then see what reps have to say about this
15:24:36 <bobreyes> +1 on williamq
15:24:36 <williamq> then, if there is no real pushback, we move ahead with this
15:25:02 <williamq> this speaks to a more general problem the council has of having a lot of private conversations that should in fact be open to reps-general
15:25:04 <williamq> eom
15:25:15 <bobreyes> yes deimidis
15:25:58 <deimidis> 2 things: I think we should probably need different % by country
15:26:28 <deimidis> we need to give a time to participate in reps-general, if not this discussion will be eternal
15:26:29 <deimidis> eom
15:26:38 <bobreyes> thanks deimidis
15:26:40 <bobreyes> yes pierros
15:26:44 * pierros reminds that this would be double adjustment.. one for everything and then per country? too complicated... we should stick to % out of the us list
15:26:49 <pierros> also:
15:26:50 <pierros> Someone needs to take this to accounting too to see "if" we are allowed to do this...ie. pay people fixed amounts, without receipts.
15:26:52 <pierros> eom
15:26:56 <williamq> !
15:27:05 <bobreyes> yes williamq
15:27:07 <williamq> 3 points:
15:27:49 <deimidis> !
15:27:57 <williamq> 1) having different % for different countries defeats the purpose of having a per diem, the aim is to have one fixed reference that we can use so that we don't even need to think anymore when trying to establish whether a budget is appropriate or not for a Rep in a certain country
15:28:21 <williamq> 2) i agree we need to give a fixed time for Reps to chime in. I would say 2 weeks.
15:29:09 <williamq> 3) receipts *will* still have to be submitted
15:29:10 <williamq> eom
15:29:16 <bobreyes> thanks williamq
15:29:19 <bobreyes> yes deimidis
15:29:49 <pierros> !
15:29:49 <deimidis> item 3 of williamq , adding that if Reps received more money, he could use in the next budget
15:29:50 <deimidis> eom
15:30:07 <bobreyes> thanks deimidis
15:30:07 <williamq> +1 on deimidis
15:31:51 <bobreyes> let's move on to the next item: Reimbursement of Gasoline Expense
15:31:58 <pierros> !
15:32:02 <bobreyes> yes pierros
15:32:03 <pierros> (on previous item)
15:32:37 <pierros> I am not sure if per diems work with receipts (I thought not :) ) but if they do, there seems to be adding complexity as we need to start keeping an "open tab" basically for every rep (which we currently do not, as we deal with them per request). Possibly per-diem can be a guide for reference on requests? also would there be in advance payment? If not this is only for approving?
15:32:48 <pierros> eom
15:32:56 <williamq> !
15:33:00 <bobreyes> yes williamq
15:33:08 <williamq> to pierros' point
15:33:38 <williamq> the per diem table is simply a reference tool when reviewing a budget bug, but it's also a reference tool for Reps when they prepare their budget requests
15:33:40 <williamq> so for example
15:34:18 <williamq> if Joe from Somalia asks for 250 USD for personal food for a one day event in Mogadishu
15:34:45 <williamq> the reviewer can consult the per diem table and see that the normal per diem for food in mogadishu is 50 USD
15:34:54 <williamq> eom
15:35:17 <bobreyes> thanks williamq
15:35:22 <bobreyes> pierros anything to add?
15:35:32 <pierros> 1 point
15:35:36 <bobreyes> go ahead
15:35:59 <pierros> ok understood, so please make sure to articulate all the options around per diem in reps-general email. Who will draft this?
15:36:00 <pierros> eom
15:36:35 * williamq happy to write the first draft with bob
15:36:46 <bobreyes> thanks williamq let's do this
15:36:58 <bobreyes> anyone would like to add on Per Diem before moving on?
15:37:02 <pierros> #action williamq happy to write the first draft with bobreyes on per diem email
15:37:09 <melek> :D
15:37:16 <bobreyes> OK let's move on to the next item: Reimbursement of Gasoline Expense
15:37:17 * ioanachiorean is sorry for being late, did not see the final hours
15:38:23 <bobreyes> Some are still persistent in reimbursing Gas Expense. I think we should have a collective stand on this
15:38:47 * williamq thinks we should just vote on this
15:39:16 <bobreyes> +1 on voting for the Gas Expense
15:39:17 <pierros> +1 on williamq
15:39:26 <melek> !
15:39:31 <bobreyes> yes melek
15:39:32 * pierros wonders here or on portal?
15:39:43 <ioanachiorean> +1 portal
15:39:44 <melek> but if it's no what are we going to say
15:39:55 <bobreyes> +1 on portal
15:39:55 <melek> like why we didn't accept to pay
15:39:57 <melek> for that
15:39:59 <melek> eom
15:40:02 <williamq> !
15:40:06 <bobreyes> yes williamq
15:41:04 <williamq> i think a) we should do the vote on the portal and b) we should just explain to reps-general that the council voted on this controversial issue (explaining why it's controversial) and share the results of the vote, that's all
15:41:05 <williamq> eom
15:41:22 <bobreyes> thanks williamq
15:41:23 <melek> make sense :)
15:41:33 <bobreyes> anyone else would like to add on this matter?
15:41:36 <bobreyes> else we're moving on
15:41:47 <deimidis> !
15:41:52 <bobreyes> yes deimidis
15:42:27 <deimidis> Maybe last council discuss it a lot, so it's old story. But maybe we need to reimburse regarding special country conditions
15:42:31 <deimidis> eom
15:42:56 <bobreyes> thanks deimidis
15:42:57 <pierros> #action pierros to create a vote in the portal now
15:43:16 <williamq> !
15:43:20 <bobreyes> yes williamq
15:44:04 <williamq> just to be clear, we will vote on whether gasoline expenses are a standard expense we are OK to reimburse but then, if we vote NO, that doesn't mean we can never make exceptions
15:44:39 <williamq> so for example, if we vote NO, the reviewer assigned to the bug can still decide that in a particular case, the gasoline should be reimbursed
15:44:49 <williamq> it's always the reviewer's final decision that counts
15:44:52 <williamq> eom
15:44:56 <bobreyes> thanks williamq
15:45:04 <bobreyes> shall we move on to the next topic?
15:45:29 <bobreyes> Next item on the agenda: Task Forces
15:45:33 <bobreyes> we have 15mins left
15:45:52 <williamq> !
15:45:59 <bobreyes> yes williamq
15:46:13 <williamq> sorry for jumping in on everything :(
15:46:30 <williamq> i just wnat to make sure we cover everything on the agenda (i added a few more that we absolustely need to cover)
15:46:32 * pierros has created the vote
15:46:34 <williamq> so regarding task Forces...
15:47:04 <williamq> I think we need to completely rethink them since they clearly have not taken off, we seem to be unable to form groups around specific areas of the reMo program
15:47:20 <ioanachiorean> +1
15:47:25 <bobreyes> +1
15:47:43 <williamq> so what i would suggest is that instead of forming formal groups of people aroudn each task force area, i suggest each council member should be responsible for one area and then it's up to him or her to work with other people to get the work done
15:47:45 <williamq> eom
15:48:01 <bobreyes> thanks williamq
15:48:07 <bobreyes> anybody wants anything there?
15:48:10 <pierros> +1 on williamq
15:48:18 <pierros> one area per perso
15:48:37 <melek> +1 too this way all of us are involved!!
15:48:45 <bobreyes> +1 on pierros
15:49:21 <bobreyes> Anything else?
15:49:36 <bobreyes> Next will be Minors Policy
15:49:41 <williamq> !
15:49:42 <bobreyes> williamq
15:49:58 <pierros> !
15:50:06 <williamq> yes, so for those who may have missed this, i've been working on a new policy for minors with Kensie and Tad
15:50:08 <williamq> https://remo.etherpad.mozilla.org/minors-new-policy
15:50:20 <williamq> the aim is to allow minors to apply to Reps
15:50:31 <williamq> i have spoken to the legal team at mozilla
15:50:45 <williamq> and they're totally open to welcoming minors to ReMo
15:50:50 * pierros points out that we haven't agreed on next steps for task forces... new meeting? assignments? mails follow up?
15:50:59 <williamq> but we need to ensure that we have a clear policy that protects minors
15:51:15 * ioanachiorean I can send a mail to start a thread on task forces
15:51:29 <williamq> please have a look at the draft policy and hack it at will - i will show it to the legal team end of next week
15:51:36 <williamq> eom
15:51:52 <bobreyes> thanks williamq
15:52:10 <bobreyes> sorry about that pierros. thanks ioanachiorean for volunteering to start a thread for task forces
15:52:29 <ioanachiorean> #action ioana to start thread on task forces
15:52:50 <bobreyes> williamq when is the deadline for reviewing the Minors Policy pad?
15:53:26 <williamq> deadline should be this coming Friday midnight UTC
15:53:46 <bobreyes> thanks williamq
15:54:25 <bobreyes> #action council to review the draft policy for Minors until Fri midnight UTC
15:54:48 <bobreyes> Next in the agenda: New SOP for unacceptable behavious + how to work with HR
15:54:59 <williamq> !
15:55:03 <bobreyes> yes williamq
15:55:12 <williamq> ok team, so this is ULTRA important and critical for us to agree on
15:55:18 <williamq> and ULTRA urgent :)
15:56:14 <williamq> basically, the program has grown to a level and maturity where we need to be much more systematic and rigorous about making sure that Reps are respecting the agreement they sign
15:57:01 <williamq> unfortunately, in the past few weeks, we have had some very very very unfortunate instances of Reps behaving in a way that completely goes against our values and the responsibilties that they agree to fulfill when they signed the Reps agreement
15:57:28 <williamq> so we basically need to put into place a very clear escalation path so that these Reps are dealt with in a timely and effective manner
15:57:42 <williamq> right now, no SOP exists to address this
15:58:13 <williamq> additionally, we need to have an esclaation path in sync with Mozilla Human Resources
15:58:56 <williamq> by that, i mean that the Council needs to work very closely with HR and community managers at Mozilla so that as soon as unacceptable behaviour is detected, that HR and community managers are notified
16:00:29 <bobreyes> can we extend for 10 more minutes?
16:00:43 * williamq conneciton dropped
16:00:45 * ioanachiorean can extand
16:00:52 * williamq is back
16:01:04 * deimidis I'm ok with extend
16:01:06 <melek> no prob bobreyes
16:01:11 <williamq> so there, we need to agree on a new SOP fo rthis
16:01:17 <williamq> comments? thoughts? eom
16:01:18 * pierros is ok with extend too
16:01:27 <pierros> !
16:01:33 <bobreyes> yes pierros
16:02:04 <pierros> One point that we need to clarify is escalation routes... I can see 3 of them..
16:02:15 <pierros> 1. Through the mentor
16:02:23 <melek> !
16:02:25 <pierros> 2. Through a fellow rep (even a council member)
16:02:33 <pierros> 3. Through a mozillian
16:02:56 <pierros> for those routes we need to have different contact points and procedures (follow-ups etc)
16:02:59 <pierros> eom
16:03:05 <williamq> !
16:03:07 <bobreyes> yes melek
16:03:10 <melek> just a question to william: I don't get the point to notify the HR team! it's about the reps program or all the mozillians?
16:03:12 <melek> eom
16:03:39 <williamq> ok, so i'd like to respond to melek then to pierros
16:03:46 <bobreyes> go ahead
16:04:21 <williamq> i'm referring to Reps only
16:04:46 <williamq> the council should primarily ensure that Reps are respecting the agreement they sign
16:05:08 <williamq> but of course, if the council hears about unacceptable behaviour by a non-Rep, it can inform HR
16:05:15 <williamq> the point of informing HR is the following...
16:06:00 <williamq> recently, a Rep who had a history of problematic behaviour did something bad in front of some mozilla employees and partners who had never met this Rep before
16:06:16 <melek> :s
16:06:59 <williamq> if the Council had notified HR, HR could have made sure that the mozila employees and partner were informed before the incident happened
16:07:20 <williamq> or the meeting with that Rep could have been avoided
16:07:20 * ioanachiorean :(
16:07:25 * pierros clarifies that by escalation routes, he meant who raises those to the council (so we can follow the SOP)
16:07:47 <williamq> basically, we want to avoid bad surprises
16:08:09 <melek> got it !! merci  :)
16:08:15 <deimidis> !
16:08:19 <williamq> it's better that HR not be surprised by bad behaviour by a Rep who has had a history of problematic behaviour
16:08:29 <williamq> eom
16:08:30 <bobreyes> yes deimidis
16:09:42 <deimidis> If williamq story if what I knew, I don't think inform HR could make any difference. That's something we couldn't preview
16:10:21 <deimidis> if we could preview, we could change decisions before, but I don't think we could do that in any case
16:10:27 <ioanachiorean> can we all know the problem//
16:10:34 <williamq> !
16:10:42 <ioanachiorean> !
16:10:54 <bobreyes> yes williamq
16:11:02 <deimidis> The only thing we coudl talk with HR is if we knew anything, reach to them to be sure they know
16:11:03 <deimidis> eom
16:11:13 <bobreyes> yes williamq
16:11:52 <williamq> we can discuss the problem more in detail on a vidyo call this week
16:12:05 <bobreyes> +1 on that
16:12:13 <williamq> for the pursposes of time, i prefer not going into detail right now
16:12:16 <melek> +1
16:12:18 <ioanachiorean> +1 on williamq
16:12:19 <bobreyes> let's schedule a vidyo call this week
16:12:20 <williamq> and to deimidis' point, i agree
16:12:21 <pierros> !
16:12:41 <williamq> but the aim is just that HR not be completely taken off guard whenever a serious problem arises
16:12:56 <deimidis> williamq, +1
16:13:12 * williamq has to RUN to the airport, his plane is boarding in 45 minutes :(
16:13:19 <pierros> I can take a first draft on the SOP based on the discussion we just had so we can discuss on this.
16:13:31 <bobreyes> thanks pierros
16:13:36 * deimidis williamq is always running to airports
16:13:49 <melek> :D
16:13:58 <melek> courage williamq
16:14:04 * deimidis there's a special williamq fast track
16:14:10 <bobreyes> #action pierros to do the first draft on the SOP for unacceptable behaviours + how to work with HR
16:14:11 * williamq waves bye to everyone! and thanks bob for chairing the meeting! (merci Melek :)
16:14:20 * ioanachiorean williamq doesn't go to gym, running in the airports keeps him fit
16:14:25 <bobreyes> Anyone would like to add? we're on OT now
16:14:27 <melek> :D
16:14:28 <pierros> ioanachiorean, :P
16:14:43 <melek> bobreyes maybe an action point
16:14:52 <pierros> !
16:14:55 <bobreyes> yes pierros
16:14:56 <melek> to send a doodle to schedule the vidyo
16:14:58 <melek> meeting
16:14:59 <melek> eom
16:15:01 <ioanachiorean> I wanted to add before that probably we can t prevent it but at least the reactions will be expected or people will know what to expect
16:15:15 <melek> +1 ioanachiorean
16:15:31 <bobreyes> #action bobreyes to send a doodle for the vidyo schedule this week to further discuss unacceptable behaviours + how to work with HR SOP
16:15:47 <pierros> Can we have an owner on ROM announcement and text?
16:15:49 <pierros> eom
16:16:05 <bobreyes> pierros I will draft the ROM announcement
16:16:16 <ioanachiorean> for all times of now u mean?
16:16:26 <pierros> thanks bobreyes ! send it over to all and I can post it on the portal when we are done
16:16:36 <pierros> ioanachiorean, for now only
16:16:40 <melek> !
16:16:44 <bobreyes> #action bobreyes to draft the ROM Announcement
16:16:48 <bobreyes> yes melek
16:16:50 <deimidis> ioanachiorean, now that i'm sure I know what we are talking about, we couldn't say anything before and take some decisions, but after vidyo talk we could continue talking :)
16:16:54 <melek> is it a good idea to give also access to the chair
16:17:01 <melek> to add the text to the portal
16:17:07 <deimidis> !
16:17:10 <melek> just special access to avoid
16:17:14 <melek> pinging pierros
16:17:19 <melek> every time :)
16:17:20 <melek> eom
16:17:34 <bobreyes> thanks melek!
16:17:39 <bobreyes> yes deimidis
16:17:41 <deimidis> what's the meaning of ROM? I was thinking on a new firefoxos version
16:17:42 <melek> not it's not good to ping you pierros :D Just to avoid to disturb you :)
16:17:45 <pierros> melek, good idea.. it was just a technical issue up until now
16:18:04 <bobreyes> @deimidis Rep Of the Month (ROM)
16:18:07 <pierros> melek, always available for all you to ping... ping away :)
16:18:25 <pierros> ROTM should be :)
16:18:30 <deimidis> thanks bobreyes I hate this abbreviations :P
16:18:39 <pierros> (as per LOTR :P )
16:18:43 <melek> :D
16:18:45 <bobreyes> :D
16:18:49 <deimidis> JOTM
16:18:53 <bobreyes> anything else before we end?
16:19:23 <melek> nop for me :)
16:19:31 <ioanachiorean> no
16:19:45 <pierros> nope
16:20:10 <bobreyes> deimidis anything to add?
16:20:16 <deimidis> nope
16:20:30 <bobreyes> thanks everyone for your patience and for attending today/tonight's meeting
16:20:40 <pierros> should I end this ? :)
16:20:49 <bobreyes> thanks pierros for assisting me :D (using a PC now; left my Mac)
16:20:54 <pierros> #endmeeting